From law to order

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Cops and lawyers are famously “separate but equally important groups” within the criminal justice system. Police officers often encounter the practice of law – lawyers, warrants, the witness stand – but what makes some of them join it? How do they manage the transition? And how does their policing background help or complicate their legal careers?

Louis-Philippe Thériault is a lawyer with McInnes Cooper in Moncton whose practice focuses on commercial and corporate law. He spent 12 years with the RCMP, working on patrol, general investigations, and financial crimes, and he’s a Major in the Canadian Army Reserves.

Alain Babineau spent 30 years in law enforcement, including with the Ontario Provincial Police, the Military Police, and the RCMP. Now, he's articling at the Ontario Bar Association. He has also done anti-discrimination work in Montreal, notably with the Office of the Commissioner for the Fight against Racism and Systemic Discrimination, the Centre for Research-Action on Race Relations, and the Red Coalition.

Verdicts & Voices is a legal current affairs podcast presented by the Canadian Bar Association. With her retinue of expert guests, host Alison Crawford keeps listeners up to date on news, views, and stories about the law and the justice system in Canada.

Transcript

Hi, and welcome to Verdicts & Voices. This is weekly legal affairs podcast produced by the Canadian Bar Association. I'm your host, Alison Crawford.

In the criminal justice system, police apply the law in real time with real consequences in every Canadian community. Police officers witness society's worst moments up close and every day. And those perspectives can build unique perspectives on the relationship between enforcement and justice. And sometimes they inspire police officers to become lawyers. Today, we're going to meet two men who've done just that.

Louis-Philippe Thériault took a leave of absence from the RCMP in 2018 to go to law school. He was with the RCMP for 12 years and is a major in the Canadian Army Reserve. He has worked with the New Brunswick Human Rights Commission and the Bureau of Pension Advocates at Veterans Affairs Canada. LP now practices corporate commercial law at McInnes Cooper.

Alain Babineau retired from the RCMP in 2016 after 30 years in law enforcement. And that includes time seconded to the military police and the Ontario Provincial Police. He's a mediator and an expert in racial and social profiling, and he is currently articling at the Ontario Bar Association.

Welcome to you both to Verdicts & Voices.

Alain Babineau

Thanks for having us.

Louis-Philippe Thériault

Thank you for having us. Yeah.

Alison

Well, I guess I should start at the beginning, right? So, Louis-Philippe, why did you decide to take that leave of absence and go to law school?

Louis-Philippe Thériault

Well, I've always had an interest in law, especially my last few years with the RCMP, as I was involved with a group that was a precursor to the current professional association. I was exposed to a lot of inner workings of labour law, so working alongside with lawyers quite a bit. And at the same time, I was involved with the advocacy side as well, defending the members' rights.

I could see what was going on in most of the country. And I quickly discovered that often, you know, lawyers have the answer to a question or a solution to a problem. And I became increasingly interested in learning more, see what I can do to help my peers.

Alison

Okay, what about Alain? I spoke to you, Alain, last week, and you've been studying the law almost as long as you were a police officer. So tell me, tell me about that journey.

Alain Babineau

Yeah, well, I've always been interested by law throughout my service. I'm also a lifelong learner. So, throughout my service, I took courses in law, you know, at various levels. And when I decided to retire, I thought about what am I going to do when I retire, you know. And being the type of person that needs to be busy. I thought, okay, let me apply to law school. So, before doing that, I did the legal study course at Carleton University, sort of brush up on the latest, you know, the law, be up to date. And then applied to law school in McGill in Montreal and also at the Ottawa U. And I got into both and decided to go with McGill because of their dual legal system program, including Indigenous law, which is really three types of legal systems.

Alison

So, I'm going to ask you, LP, like, you were on a leave. So, did you go back to the RCMP and make any inquiries about a change in what you were doing there? Like, did you intend to go back?

Louis-Philippe Thériault

No, it was fully my intention to go back when I first started law school. As you know, federal employees are entitled to take leave without pay to further their education. So, after 11 years, you know, on patrol or working alongside general duty, and then going back to law school, I did write to the human resources department of J division here in New Brunswick. And I basically told them, you know, I'm going to be a lawyer in three years after my first year. And I asked them what you have for me or where do you see me once I've completed law school and I'm a lawyer. And they basically told me you're going back to patrol. So that kind of, that's a nail in the coffin. Really that same week I just wrote my letter of resignation seeing that there was no will from management or upper management, you know, for a member like me with my experience to do something else.

Alison

Alain, is that a kind of experience that you had as well? Did you have anyone kind of look at you differently because you were interested in studying the law?

Alain Babineau

Not really. Not really. I knew there was a program in the RCMP where they would actually pay for your law school, which I think they removed at some point. But, know, in the RCMP, it's not so much about what you know. Sometimes it's who you know. But anyways, I decided to go about it on my own and to go to law school upon retirement.

Alison

That said, when we were speaking earlier, you both mentioned that in your police training itself, there is a different approach to the law and how they see it.

Louis-Philippe Thériault

Yes, it was… At least, when I was a police officer, it was very, you know, black and white. It was you're a bad guy or you're good guy. You're with us or you're against us. And that was the predominant attitude, I would say. Not everyone was like that. And I don't think I was always completely like that. But when I stepped away from policing… kept all my friends in policing, but you know, began to make new friends and was exposed to some elements of criminal law… you learn that there's more and more grey. Yes, there are some extremes, but the grey zone is so much wider. Everybody's got their story. Everybody comes from somewhere different and it's not you're a bad guy, you're a good guy. It is for some, but the majority of people, no, it's, you’re in the middle.

Alison

Yeah.

Alain Babineau

Definitely. In policing, it's about enforcing. I mean, the word forcing is to make somebody do something they don't really want to do. And so when you study the law, it's more about the interpretation of the law and the nuances that are in the law. And so it's very, very, very different. I mean, some folks said, well, you know, you’ve been a police officer for all those years, criminal law will be easy for you. Well, not really. Not really.

Alison

Really?

Alain Babineau

No. I mean, some notions you do have, you've learned during your policing career. But again, it's interpreting the law, it's finding nuances that are part of the law, and in policing you don't have that. It's really, as LP mentioned, it’s really you’re either good or you're bad. So that's the main difference I found.

Alison

What are some of the perspectives that you've gained through policing that you find have made you valuable in the legal community or in the legal firms where you've practiced or where you're practicing right now? Louis-Philippe?

Louis-Philippe Thériault

Well, it's that ability to look at things from different angles. The investigator’s perspective sometimes, and often, and I'm not saying that every police officer that would become a lawyer would have that, but it's that ability to think outside the box and look at things from different angles. And when you look at a problem, you eliminate possible solutions, and whatever remains, you know, it's probably your solution that works.

Instead of jumping directly to one conclusion, you go through that investigative step and look at it from all your experience that you've acquired over the years and try to analyze a problem.

Alison

Yeah. And you initially wanted to go into labour law, right? That was sort of what inspired you.

Louis-Philippe Thériault

Yes, it was. Absolutely. And I’ve still got an interest in labour law. However, you know what, I fell in love with something else.

Alison

Yeah, tell us what you're doing.

Louis-Philippe Thériault

Well, mainly commercial and corporate law. So, I found something that I used to avoid when I was in high school. You know, math? Numbers? I find that very comforting, the certainty of numbers. You have the figures, mathematical equations, and that's your final product. As if you're in labour law, criminal law, and all those law, you might have the best math, but someone's gonna evaluate your equation and look at it and say, you know what? No. Because it's all, you know, evaluated based on principles.

Alison

Yeah, yeah. And Alain, how do you feel that your perspective – I mean, after 30 years of law enforcement and all the courses you've taken – how do you feel that that really has informed your legal education?

Alain Babineau

Well, it certainly makes you more respectful of rules. I mean, and the RCMP has a whole bunch of rules, so, you know, and so does the law. And so, you're respectful of that. You know, I spent most of my career in the RCMP in the federal enforcement, long-term investigations, a lot of paperwork, a lot of legal processes. I would use search warrants and all these different types of things, and appearing in judicial proceedings and whatnot. So all of these things combined not so much for law school… I mean yeah, for law school, but also in terms of practicing, in terms of being familiar with the legal system and, you know, being on the stand and testifying and all these sorts of things. It's a good preparation for legal practice.

Alison

Alain, you plan to go into criminal defence and also employment law. So how do you envision your future practice? Who are you going to help?

Alain Babineau

I'm going to help the most vulnerable communities. That's from a law enforcement service, the way in which the law enforcement is applied or serviced to the public. But also within law enforcement institutional organizations where employees and law enforcement officers are suffering, you know, or being victimized or victims of discrimination and also other employment issues. So those, you know, I'm really focusing on those two aspects.

Alison

Yeah. And so, our viewers also, I mean our listeners, our… not viewers. Our listeners may not know that you're Black. And so, is that something that you experienced first time as a police officer or a member of the RCMP?

Alain Babineau

Well, I did in some ways. I mean, I don't know of too many racialized police officers that haven't experienced racism in some respect, discrimination as well. And so, it's all about how you respond to it. And if you are unable to get assistance, real assistance, then it becomes a very, very difficult career, way to go forward.

Alison

Yeah. Yeah. And you also spent some time working for or with police in Montreal. Is that correct?

Alain Babineau

Yeah, well, I worked with the city of Montreal Bureau of… Anti-Discrimination Bureau for the city of Montreal, working more specifically with the city police on issues of racial profiling.

Alison

How did that go?

Alain Babineau

Not so well, simply because I don't think there was a genuine desire to change things. And that's one of the things that you face within policing. It's a very, very, very resilient profession or organization, you know, and things are very slow to change. And there's a lot of denial within law enforcement in terms of the ways in which the services are rendered to minority communities and so there's backlash and so it's very difficult. And after one year, I felt that there was no way forward for me or for the organization.

Alison

Louis-Philippe, I'm sure you have some perspectives to see that. When we spoke earlier, you mentioned that having experience with the criminal law as a police officer does help you develop some compassion, if you let it, right? And that is something that you would bring, and that you do bring, to your legal practice now.

Louis-Philippe Thériault

Yes, and tying that in with what Alain just said, my first intention as I was leaving law school was to do something similar to what Alain is hoping to achieve, assisting members. And that's why I chose to article with a criminal law firm. So I never actually practiced criminal law, but I was exposed to quite a bit.

And only because I was working there, it's a criminal law firm that practices criminal law, but other stuff as well, I was labelled as, I don't know if I can say traitor, but a lot of police officers that used to talk to me just stopped talking to me because I was working there. But something really interesting is that every time there's a police officer getting charged, and you know, he’s getting charged for excessive use of force, I hear police officers saying, oh, he's got a good lawyer, he's got a good defence.

But how do these lawyers get good at defending? Well, they defended criminals before. And they couldn't understand that I wanted to get experience in order to be able to help police officers, but you've got to get that. There's not enough police officers getting charged to develop that experience.

So ultimately, I just stopped because I saw I was going to lose a lot of contacts just by working there. That's one of the reasons why I stopped. But you can't get experience by just...

Alison

That's wild. A question for both of you. Do you feel that there could be more, or a different kind of way, to incorporate education about the law into the existing police training that new cadets receive, what the RCMP or new police officers receive? Alain?

Alain Babineau

I don't think so. I think that the role of police officers is to be aware of the law and how to apply it. I think it's more of a situation where they must enforce the law in a fair-handed and respectful way. But for them to know the nitty-gritty of legal principles, I don't think that's necessary.

I think there's enough of that, and those that want to know more, there's always an opportunity for them to take courses and to deepen their understanding. But I think what's being delivered in training, at the academy, I think it's sufficient.

Alison

Okay. Louis-Philippe, I saw that you were nodding a bit when I was asking the question. You have a different point of view.

Louis-Philippe Thériault

Different, yes and no. Maybe different on how police officers are getting training. For me, I went through Police Foundations first, two years before getting into the RCMP. And one of the teachers that was teaching criminal law was an ex-criminal defence lawyer who practiced for over 30, 35 years. So he was teaching future police officers tips and tricks.

And then I get to Depot, in RCMP training, and it's a police officer teaching us that was taught by a police officer that was taught by a police officer. And right in my first week, I saw some stuff that wasn't super accurate as far as, you know, case law or procedure. It was different how they were teaching us, as opposed to that criminal...

And I know the RCMP doesn't like people from the outside too much teaching the RCMP. They like when it's their own thing. But I think bringing some lawyers who actually practice criminal law teaching over there, I agree with Alain, they don't need to know all the details, all the case law, all the application. But the broad strokes, like having a criminal defence lawyer teaching RCMP officers criminal law, would benefit.

Alain Babineau

Definitely. And you see that in other... I was with the OPP for a minute and went to Aylmer College, and it was a lawyer teaching criminal law. So you're right. It's funny, because RCMP officers at Depot, they seem to think that they have to be master of all things, and the only way is the RCMP way. But yeah, I would nuance my response and agree with LP here.

Alison

Yeah, and I did notice, actually, I did some looking around, I saw York University has a course that's like law for law enforcement, which I thought was interesting as well.

Alain Babineau

It's true. I saw that.

Alison

Well, Alain, when are you finished your articles?

Alain Babineau

April.

Alison

April, okay. And when are you planning to set up your practice?

Alain Babineau

Sometime this summer. I just want to make sure that I get it right.

Alison

Well, best of luck with that.

Alain Babineau

Thank you very much.

Alison

And Louis-Philippe, you are continuing to do some good corporate commercial work. I understand that your clients are also very interested in your time with the reserves.

Louis-Philippe Thériault

Part of my corporate and commercial practice, we have a focus on aerospace and defence. So if we can tie that in, if I can help my clients with my RCMP, Canadian Armed Forces experience, helping them navigate the security clearance, the controlled goods aspect of the government. I've navigated it myself multiple times, even got lost in the past. So, if I can help them navigate that system and obtain contracts with the government in a more efficient way, I think I'm going to be happy. And at the same time, I'm still doing some pro bono stuff with the veteran and RCMP community.

My journey in the RCMP was not all bad. I made some very, very good friends. I had some very, very good experiences. And I'm going to be forever grateful for that. So I'm still looking to give back to the community.

Alison

Well, that's wonderful to hear. And it's been wonderful to have you share your stories with us on Verdicts & Voices. So thanks so much for making the time to speak with me.

Louis-Philippe Thériault

It was a pleasure.

Alain Babineau

Thank you.

Alison

Alain Babineau is articling at the Ontario Bar Association after 30 years in law enforcement. Louis-Philippe Thériault practices at the McInnes Cooper law firm in Moncton, New Brunswick. I really hope you enjoyed hearing the perspectives of these two former police officers who are now practicing the law. For me personally, I always love hearing about people who make interesting mid- and late-life career changes. It's really inspiring.

So I hope that you listeners are feeling as inspired as I am today, and I wish you the very best for the rest of your week. You have been listening to Verdicts & Voices. This is a weekly legal affairs podcast brought to you by the Canadian Bar Association, and I'm your host, Alison Crawford.